Wish I had included this quote in ‘How Much Protein’:
Finally, research published in 2008 by Beelen et al [Beelen M, 2008] suggests that the effect that eating protein during a workout has on protein synthesis is no different then the effect that the workout alone has when you continue to measure after 9 hour of recovery.
Bottom line, it’s your workouts, and how well they are planned and how hard you work, that determine how much muscle you gain.
Going to file this one away for the 2nd edition!
BP
This entry was posted by Brad Pilon on Thursday, September 24th, 2009 at 12:28 am and is filed under
How Much Protein
Imagine that right? Haha
But I use waxy maize carbs cuz their kleen and don’t spike teh insulinz! They rush power from the universe straight into the muscles.
Intra-workout supplements. Looks like another marketing gimmick busted by Brad.
Brad,
Do you ever read T-Nation and look at some of the nutritional guidelines they promulgate in their articles? Their latest thing is pitching casein hydrolysate (mixed with a whole host of other stuff) along with a lot of other supplementation around training. It would be interesting to see you go through their guidelines point-by-point, especially given the post you made above. That quote would seem to expose a large chunk (or possibly all of) what they promote as supplement-peddling BS.
As always, thank you for sharing your knowledge and research via this blog.
Unless I’m reading this wrong, doesn’t this study by Beelen state the opposite:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/295/1/E70
“We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.”
Hi Brad,
I’m enthusiastically following your blog and work. Thank you for the wonderful information you share!
As for the quote above, I am confused by its message. Here is the pdf of the study (I assume it’s the same one referenced above), but I’m receiving a different message.
“Protein coingestion before and/or during resistance-type exercise might be advocated to further improve further skeletal muscle reconditioning during resistance-type exercise training.”
http://obesity-cme.abbmcertification.org/articles/Obesity%20CME%20Reference%20-%20Protein%20coingestion%20stimulates%20muscle%20protein%20synthesis%20during%20resistance%20exercise.pdf
Where am I getting this discrepancy? I hope you can clear up my confusion.
Thanks!
Hi Ogg and Mike,
Great job finding that article, however I think I can help clear things up…
In the trial you found, measurements were taken for two hours after the workout.
In the trial I was quoting, measurements were taken for over 9 hours post workout.
So the trial you found is neither a discrepancy nor stating the opposite, rather its stating the exact same thing..if you measure for ONLY two hours post workout you will see a significant stimulation of protein synthesis, However, when this measurement is taken for 9 hours as it was in the trial published in the Journal of Nutrition, we realize that the effect essentially disappears.
This points to the fact that not only do we need to pay attention to ‘what’ is measured and ‘how’ it is measured, we also need to pay attention to the time frame in which it is measured (a super important point that is often overlooked).
Really, the confusion is my fault for not properly emphasizing the last point:
Research published in 2008 by Beelen et al [Beelen M, 2008] suggests that the effect that eating protein during a workout has on protein synthesis is no different then the effect that the workout alone has when you continue to measure after 9 hour of recovery.
BP
Hey Jack,
I won’t ever comment on the stuff that appears on T-Nation. Bottom line, whether it’s right or not, it’s how those guys get paid, their job is to entertain (really ‘infotain’) and they do a great job doing exactly that. As right or wrong as it may be, attacking someones livelihood, never ends well… (especially in the supplement industry)
Hey Omar,
Probably not a gimmick as much as just being misquoted or mis-extrapolated. The research is good, its the application that needs more investigation.
B
Redlefty,
And suddenly I have visions of He-Man’s Power sword….”By the power of GreySkull!”
B
Hey Brad,
I remember a while ago you where going to give Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 a shot. I have read lots of good things from people who have stuck with it. How has your experience been with it? New strength gains? Are you still using it? Easy to use with Eat stop Eat?
Z
HI Z, I was using a version of it up till yesterday when I tweaked my neck doing overhead presses.
I’m going to do a month of Adam Steer’s bodyweight-blueprint program, then get back at it.
B
Hi Brad, are you able to provide a link to this study, as referenced in the Beelen study above protein intake during exercise increased protein synthesis & stopped whole body breakdown. There was a study on elderly folk that showed timed protein intake made no difference http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/2/608
The reference is in the comments section.
Please note I am NOT saying there is no effect, I am saying that this effect becomes insignificant after 9 hours. The key here is the significance of the measurement period.
B
Hey Brad
I love this blog and find it very helpful. I have followed and had success with fasting two 24 hour periods a week, but struggle not to over-eat for the hours following the fast. Psychological, I think. Anyway, it is much easier for me to stop eating from noon or early afternoon until breakfast, but this is only 17-19 hours. Is this long enough to gain some of the health benefits of IF? Should I shoot for three times a week with this some-what shorter fast period or just keep trying to master the 24 hours?
Thanks
Kristin
Hi Brad,
I can’t find this info anywhere on the net…is it okay to follow eat stop eat while breastfeeding?
Thanks,
Suzanne
@Brad Pilon
do you know the difference between ‘whole body protein synthesis’ & ‘mean muscle protein synthesis’? thx
During subsequent overnight recovery, whole-body protein synthesis was 19% greater in the C+P group than in the W group (P < 0.05). However, mean muscle protein synthesis rates during 9 h of overnight recovery did not differ between groups and were 0.056 ± 0.004%/h in the C+P group and 0.057 ± 0.004%/h in the W group (P = 0.89). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein and carbohydrate supplementation stimulates muscle protein synthesis during exercise. Ingestion of protein with carbohydrate during and immediately after exercise improves whole-body protein synthesis but does not further augment muscle protein synthesis rates during 9 h of subsequent overnight recovery.
LeftField,
What you are looking at is two different markers of amino acid kinetics within the human body. The first deals with whole body use..this includes things like your liver and GI tract. The second ‘muscle protein synthesis’ is specifically measuring amino kinetics of your skeletal muscle.
From a quick look at what you posted I would say lots of protein synthesis going on, however, not much of it happening in the muscle…
B
Really interesting stuff. I just wanted to get somethings straight though.
During 9 hours, the average protein synthesis was roughly the same using the amino kinetics method. So would this mean comparing these two isocaloric means of a workout nutrition plan
1.pre-workout shake 30 mins before and a post workout meal within 1-2 hours
2.Post workout meal within 1-2 hours
That they would both have almost the same effect on muscle protein synthesis? What about recovery?
You could add in the the third
3) no post workout meal
Yes, but we would have to define ‘recovery’
Very similar to glycogen resynthesis…post workout carbs are important if you need to replenish glycgen in the next 12 hours, but if not for another 48 hours then it won’t make a difference…
BP
Hey Brad, what is your advice you would give to someone who is already light (6’0 and 162 pounds) but is not extremely defined in the midsection (faint resemblance of abs). I guess some would call it “skinnyfat.” Bodyfat is probably around 12-14%. Do you ever recommend that there is a weight someone should not fall below for their height? Or would you recommend a phase of lifting and overeating calories to bulk up at this weight? My only clear goals are to have abs revealed and good muscular definition. By the way, I am 20 years old if that makes any difference Thanks.
Being 20 makes all the difference in the world.
At 20, you are not follow grown yet..maybe in height, but definitely not in muscle mass. At 6’2″ I would expect about 175 pounds in lean mass. Don’t worry about overeating, that’s just BodyBuilding Myth, but do concentrate on building muscle with your workouts. At 20, that’s where I would start.
B
Thanks for the reply Brad, this study to me is really important & v.interesting, it saying there is no differnce in muscle growth with or without protein during or post workout,that is crazy, & really gives you licence to workout fasted & not eat if that suits you without any detriment to potential results. one more question though, would you say there is any benefit to the increase in whole body protein synthesis? ie although muscles are not getting bigger are there any other health benefits in terms of organ health etc? thx
They cannot sell intensity and progressive overload in bottle, can they
Cheers,
Yavor
Very interesting and amusing subject. I read with great pleasure.
Hey Brad what advice do you give to those who may constitute being skinny fat. At 6’0 and 162 but without visible abs I suppose I would fit into this category. Naturally there is a hesitance about losing weight when already being light, yet fat loss is required obviously. Would you recommend a strong lifting program and ESE simultaneously? Thanks.
You hit the nail right on the head…although, I should point out that I just met a guy who at 6 foot 167 was ‘built’. so don’t let your weight make you think you are skinny fat…go by measurments.
B
Brad — in the study — were the participants fasting during the 9 hour window?
Sleeping, so yep fasting.
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