So the recent push of emails for the Shape Shifter Workout Program has re-kindled my interest in body weight exercises.
On the one hand, I love body weight training because it just feels right. On the other, I do not think you can build as much mass with body weight training as you can with traditional weight training – but of course this is just my opinion.
I’ve done a quick lit review and was unable to find any direct comparisons between body weight exercises and weighted exercises, so we’re really left to ‘logic’ are way though this process.
So logically – I see no reason why a muscle would react differently to different sources of resistance.
Acceleration is Acceleration, Force is Force and Work is Work, these classic definitions don’t change just because we’ve changed the source of the resistance.
So based on this it seems fair to say that the only thing limiting the muscle building potential of body weight exercises is your creativity.
Yet, I remain skeptical.
Now, I am COMPLETELY open to the idea that I’ve been influenced by IMAGE ILLUSION -the fact that the imagery associated with body weight exercises contain lean, toned people while the imagry of people lifting weights is your traditional body builder look.
It also may be that the increased load that is possible with weights simply allows you to get the job done faster – and I am a stern believer that most of our contrary opinions and arguements in the world of muscle building stem from the fact that we forget that this is all about ‘rate’ or ‘speed’ (it’s not IF you can build muscle, but rather HOW QUICKLY can you build muscle).
Lastly it is completely possible that I am simply over thinking this whole issue – after all – I’ve had the best success with the simple mantra’s of ‘get work done’ and ‘progress to progress’.
So here’s what I want you to do:
Check out the message and claims the guys are making over at Shape Shifter (LINK HERE), then comeback and leave a message on this post.
What I want to know is:
Do you think there is a difference in the muscle building potential of Classic Weight Training Versus Body Weight Training?
and
Do you think you can “redesign your body” with Body weight Exercises (and a good diet)?
Keep in friendly, educational and please…no swearing 
BP
(I’ll hop on and answer questions after 5 today…)
Tags: body weight exercises, Body Weight Training
No idea if there is a real difference. I know my preference at this point in my life is body weight training, especially for getting back in shape after allowing myself to get really out of shape. I like the fact I can pretty much do it anywhere, and don’t need a gym. I have a whole Olympic weight set, power rack, benches and the rest in the basement, but I found when traveling, I usually don’t have that easily available (especially since my vacation preference is camping) and body weight allows me to keep working out. I think it might be as you said, a matter of speed. The other factor I can think of is that there is a need for greater creativity in body weight workouts as a person progresses including having to understand how to increase difficulty by changing lever points. Best approach in my mind is get is done in whatever way works for you.
There was actually an article on this subject. It is entitled “The Size Principle and a Critical Analysis of the Unsubstantiated Heavier-is-Better Recommendation for Resistance Training.”
The conclusion was that if you went to failure regardless of the amount of resistance you would achieve maximum size and strength. For instance, if you hold a 20lb dumbbell extend straight out, eventually your large motor units will fail and you will drop the dumbbell. The resistance didn’t change but you eventually achieved maximum motor unit recruitment.
The problem with the article is that it fails to take the logical next step. If you use heavier weights, you are more likely to reach failure and it will occur quicker. Boredom might stop you from doing 70 push-ups straight for three sets, but you could bench press 250lbs for three sets of 8.
I will email you the article.
Mike,
Don’t bother – that was the paper that spawned this post!
But great find and cool that the article I wrote brought you to the paper it was based on..
B
It depends on one’s goals and priorities. If someone wants to increase muscle mass as much as possible, lifting heavy weights (which can include adding weight to bodyweight exercises, like weighted chins) is the most efficient option. I don’t think there’s much debating that. But that’s not the only consideration for some of us.
Personally, my goal is to be thin with some muscle. And I want some “general fitness” (I know, that’s vague, so be it.) Also, as Jim pointed out, convenience is also a consideration. Nothing beats bodyweight in terms of convenience/ cost/ time. And lastly, I worry about potential joint issues concerning lifting really heavy weight. So for those four reasons, I’ll try bodyweight for a while. When I start working out again, I’m going to do bodyweight circuits: pushups, chins, squats, lunges, body rows, etc. That will provide some strength training (even if it’s not as efficient as lifting really heavy weights) and excellent cardio.
Once I reach my weight loss goal (~45 pounds,) if I think I’m not muscular enough, I’ll reevaluate my routine. (It’s hard to know how much muscle I have since it’s covered by a lot of fat, so I won’t worry about it until then.) If I need to add external resistance, that’s fine.
Sure I think BW exercises can be excellent for most people and you can get some great results. I believe that some people may be able to build more mass using weights because you cannot duplicate via BW exercises alone the loading you get with exercises like heavy squats or heavy deadlifts, no matter how inventive with BW execution you get. For most people though this is irrelevant though. You can achieve fantastic results with a program built around pushups/dips, chins/pullups, BW squats/pistols, single leg deadlifts, bridges and hanging leg raises. With BW exercises, very strong individuals may get to the point were the number of reps crosses over the strength-endurance line and therefore has diminishing returns for muscle growth.
Too late. Sorry to cluter your mailbox.
If a person is overweight/obese, then body weight exercises will definitely help. But not in achieving the Adonis/Venus index ratio(unless you spend couple of hours per day working out with body weight!)
No worries at all, it’s the thought that counts!
B
The answer is “yes,” you can build large amounts of muscle with only bodyweight. However, this is only the case for the upper body. You can’t use your bodyweight to build legs or hips equal to what you can get with weight training.
The problem is that it requires knowledge that is known mostly to gymnastics coaches and very few others, whereas weight training info can be found readily on the web.
With weights, once you learn the bench press it the same exercise from the bar up to 1000lbs. But to move from a pushup to planche pushups on the rings or doing reps of back levers to planches with locked elbows is probably more complex.
In regards to bodyweight training and an appropriately designed eating style to help with body decomposition, I have found leaning out to be an easier process if I add more bodyweight training, such as handstand pushups, pulling, climbing, etc…. I always found it to be as though my body knew that it will be easier to move itself around in such difficult positions if there was less non-functional weight to lug around. I am not, however, aware of any studies done to determine if this is a step the body will take to adapt to the new demands, or just my perception of it. But being as the body is always looking for the easiest and most efficient methods, logic would dictate that it would get rid of useless weight if it impinges on functionality, if an appropriate state of feeding, with proper food choices, is maintained.
My apologies. Was supposed to be “recomposition” instead of ” decomposition” in the first line of my response above.
It was a way funnier read as ‘decomposition’
I think the difference between the two has less to do with the actual form of resistance and more to do with the mental feedback. As Brad stated “Progress to Progress” or even “Progress is Progress”, but with weighted movements the progress is easier to see (and control as Mike pointed out) and the mental “reward” is greater. I think the feedback from adding 5lbs to my bench is greater than being able to hold the planche for 10 seconds longer, even if the stimulus to the muscle is the same (just an example, I don’t really know if it is). Also the power of belief in what you are doing, created from the positive feedback, and just being able to stick it out should never be underestimated.
I personally prefer body movement exercises; Weighted Dips, Chins, and Squats being my favorite.
I personally prefer body movement exercises; Weighted Dips, Chins, and Squats being my favorite.
Don’t forget the weighted pushups! Gotta love’em
B
Entirely intuitively, I am tempted to think the more weight you use to stimulate your muscles, the more the muscles will tend to grow.
Since bodyweight exercises use the same weight every time (assuming you keep the number of reps constant) whereas in weight training you keep increasing the weight (but again keeping reps the same), then you would stop growing with bodyweight training after a point and would only preserve muscle.
But I might be *completely* wrong.
Yeah, I like to superset weighted pushups with weighted inverted rows. And just use an old packpack with the same weight for both. Just work the sets back and forth, that way I can work up a lot of volume in a short amount of time.
Having lost 80 pounds plus at this point, I am just happy I can do push-ups and the like (I still can’t do unassisted pull-ups–did I say I let myself get way out of shape) but I can imagine a time when I will be able to do huge numbers of these exercises with just my body weight then being able to use weights could bring greater satisfaction. What sold me on body weight stuff is the book You Are your own Gym by Mark Lauren. It is a major training modality used in special forces training according to him as a retired special forces trainer. Thinking about that I could see the argument for that as on deployment there would be few ways to workout if one depended on availability of weights or a gym. Also, I strive not so much for huge size, but functional strength. IMHO body weight allows for more of that.
I don’t see why you couldn’t build muscle with bodyweight exercises. As long as you follow the principle of progressive overload and have some decent periodization you should be able to grow and continue growing.
From what I can tell from the literature as well as experience you need to lift a “weight” (metal, body, etc) that is anywhere from 60% to 100% of your one rep max (20 to 1 rep), for 2 to 10 sets, 2 to 7 days per week over at least several months for muscle growth (Brad please correct me if I miss stated something), anything that fits in that range “should” work.
For example If you worked through a progression from pushups on your knees to one arm pushups you will more then likely be bigger. You just have to find a way to keep making the exercise more difficult.
And as you can see this is where the problem comes in, but with a little creativity or maybe a gymnastics class it “should” be possible.
Kyle – looks about right to me – In fact I would suggest that it might be even lower than 60%, as long as the effort is there.
I think most people here had a reality check in their hypertrophy expectations with your and John’s ideas, Brad, me included. Normally, when we think about stimulating hypertrophy by using weights, bodybuilders come to mind, and that kind of build may be impossible, even with steroids, using BW exercises. But if you think about real, achievable muscle gains, well…Maybe. I’m not so shure about pure strength.
In the other hand, I remember Pavel, in Power to the People, saying something about a record holder in situps, who could do a lot, 20.000 or more, and didn’t have a six pack to show even at low BF levels. His point was that high repetition work sucks. I suppose high repetition is something you can’t avoid with BW training as you progress.
Personally, I train mainly with weights, heavy, low reps, and think about BW training as something to use on the road/ after injury/ light days. But that’s only me, not necessarily the only way to go!
This line of thought kind of makes me want to try a bodyweight only routine just to test the water so to speak. I’m coming to the end of a cycle so at the very least it could work in as a strength endurance block. And if it works out, then cool.
Lambros, that’s not correct. With upper body exercises using only bodyweight, you can progressively increase the tension or force that the muscles need to exert by decreasing leverage. No added weight is necessary. Since muscles only know tension and not weight, decreasing leverage can provide the same muscle building stimulus as adding weight.
To illustrate the point I made early, there is little knowledge of how to use bodyweight training for real muscle and strength gains. When most people talk about bodyweight training they only think of pushups, situps, dips, pullups, ect. They only think of simple exercises that can be built up for high repetitions.
If you want to build serious muscle with bodyweight exercises you need to do gymnastics ring exercises, planches, 90 degree pushups, ect.
Neal,
My only concern would be that increasing the difficulty may not necessarily mean increasing the stress on the muscle, but rather the need for balance and coordination, and technique. While I totally see your point, I would suggest that this is something we should consider….
B
Good Point Brad,
I think if you choose the “right” progressions you could continue to stimulate muscle;
For example pushups, planche pushups, planche pushups on rings, maltese cross flys. With me personally I think I would hit my genetic (or lifestyle) potential long before I completed this progression, but I’m pretty tall (6 ft 3 inches or 190.5 cm for our metric using friends) so I have longer levers.
Another problem that Neal mentioned was with development of the legs. I think most people could benefit and build muscle from one legged squats and different length sprints, but it still would not be the same as weighted squats and deadlifts, after all most sprinters now cross train with weights to improve their sprint times.
I would say that bodyweight exercises are not always about high reps but more about finding a way to make the moves progressively harder. Just get creative and have fun!
(And for an example/ result of bodyweight training look at Zuzana from Bodyrock.tv! BTW I‘ve got nothing to do with the site…)
Hey Brad,
I can say from personal experience as an Airman in the US Air Force that weights build muscle better than bodyweight training. I just got out of US Air Force Basic Military Training two weeks ago. Before I went to BMT, all I did was workout with weights. The usual squats, deadlifs, benching, shoulder pressing, and some bodyweight stuff like chinups and dips. Once I got to BMT, all we did during workouts was pushups, pullups, situps, flutter kicks, squat thrusts and other ab exercises as well as long distance running, and we trained six days a week at 5 am every morning except Sunday. I guess I should also mention that we did them fasted, we never got breakfast until after our workouts. I lost a lot of size through out most of my body. The only place that might have gotten a little “thicker” was my pecs and shoulders. But that would probably be to the great volume of pushups we had to do. Every time we would do anything “wrong” we would immediately be on our faces doing pushups until our Military Training instructor told us to stop. Now that I’m out of Basic Training and in Tech School (where I learn my specific job) I have access to a full gym with weights, it’s only been two weeks but I already feel like I’m gaining back some of the muscle I lost during Basic Training. That’s just my two cents from somebody who was forced to do nothing but bodyweight workouts for two months.
Best Regards,
Airman Masis
Herschel Walker, who was always catching heat during is college a pro football career for refusing to lift weights, and for sticking to mostly body weight routines, should be included in any analysis of the subject. Of course, he obviously has favorable genetics for muscle mass.
Well I think that body weight exercises are great, when you need to just chill out from regular routines for few months. I also think after a while you will have to add some additional weight plates to your exercises to keep progressing, so then it’s kind of same as regular weight lifting, isn’t it? Just look at exercises like dips, chin ups etc.
“Do you think there is a difference in the muscle building potential of Classic Weight Training Versus Body Weight Training?”
I have no idea; I think that this question is for more experienced guys like you Brad. But I do think that it is a good idea to do this kind of training for a while.
“Do you think you can “redesign your body” with Body weight Exercises (and a good diet)?”
I think that you can redesign your body with any type of training. (Talking of muscle size and shape of course.) Every good workout is design to do certain things for you – Ai is more shoulder focused for example. So I think that answer is yes.
What do you think Brad?
Have a nice day,
Greg
When I have initially heard about the shape lifter this came into my mind:
“Uff, time for another program cause the knowledge we gathered through BP,JB,and BH unfortunately is not enough to believe in the simplest:
eat less to loose weight, train hard to gain muscles”
I believe you should do both the body and weight training and both will be hard when you want to see any visible results. It will be a long journey no matter which option you choose. If one starts with the weight of 30pounds dumbbells for the chest press, it will take years to get to weight of 80pounds. If one wants to do the free hand stand and later free handstand presses, it will take a tremendous amount of body weight training to get there. There is no easy way, no shortcuts. You have to suffer to get the results you want and all new programs and techniques is just another marketing scam. I am sorry, but once I discover the JB,PB and BH TRIO I am not falling into any traps anymore. I understand that learning and trying is good, but over learning is worse!!!
Brad,
I like to perform a mix of bodyweight training and weight lifting. I think there is a place for both in a well-rounded strength routine.
Alykhan
Yes I thin there is a difference in the muscle building potential of Classic Weight Training Versus Body Weight Training,for me body weight training works better, or maybe I like it so much that I simply prefer it to classic weight training. I also believe that we can “redesign our bodies” with Body weight Exercises and a good diet.
Yes there definitely is a difference in muscle building potential of the different types of training, of course depending on the situation. While some body weight exercises are great, your body weight might not be the ideal weight needed to stimulate muscle growth. Some people are too fat to do pull ups. And as another example, most healthy people should be able to easily do 100 + body weight squats, that which surely wouldn’t provide enough tension on the muscles in order to stimulate significant muscle growth.
Building muscle is simple. All it takes (with a good exercise) is roughly the ideal amount of tension (or range) along with enough time under tension (let that be by doing several reps or even just doing a static hold).
So surely you could redesign your body with body weight exercises and a good diet. But that doesn’t mean its the best way to do it. If proper tension is needed to stimulate optimal muscle growth without having any negative affects, using weights when needed for added tension would be the way to go.
This all brings me to an important question when concerning these matters. What should be the specific role that exercise plays within the body transformation process?
Many have argued that reducing calories is the only thing needed to reduce body fat and that the only role exercise should play is to maintain or gain muscle mass. Drew Baye is a perfect example of this. You can look him up and find his contest pictures. He said when he trained for a contest he was only doing one workout per week which consisted of 6 exercises, one set per exercise, and lasted only 15-20 minutes.
That whole idea really sounds nuts and unbelievable when compared to what everyone else is recommending, but so does Brad’s simplified IF strategy for losing weight. What I can say for myself is that I am currently trying a routine that is much more abbreviated than that. I do 3 exercises per workout, one set per exercise, and one workout per week. And so far I have increased strength from workout to workout for roughly 12 weeks and am continuing to get stronger.
It is quite clear to me by now that building muscle is a lot simpler than what most people think and it can be done while spending much less time in the gym. The same goes for diet. I am trying IF right now and so far it is the simplest approach I have come across. Its been a few weeks and so far I have lost a few pounds effortlessly.
To change your image of bodyweight-trained people i’d say: watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbPMiOiPl6k&feature=player_embedded#at=185
)
(or, you know, any other video with close-ups of olympic gymnasts
Hi Friedrich,
Only problem with this is the assumption that gymnasts don’t cross train with weight training.
B
According to Coach Sommer (http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/) it’s not too common for gymnasts to do so. And since gymnasts have absolutely no need for any more leg size than necessary for jumping and landing, you can at least be pretty sure they don’t engage in the powerlifts.
I’m not a good one for “taking someone’s word for it”
Hi Brad,
What do you make of Drew Baye’s work that Charles mentioned. I checked it out a few days ago and am quite stunned to learn that he advocates training 15-20 minutes 2 to 3x a week. As someone who follows the old AI workouts and ESE, I’m quite stumped that you can maintain & grow muscle with such minimal time. I know John Barban says to increase muscle size one needs more volume, frequency & thus intensity.
Anyway here’s the link to Drew’s site, http://baye.com/the-minimum-amount-necessary/
Would love to hear what you make of such minimal training.
Ps – I just completed 2 back to back AI workouts over the past 6 months and am quite exhausted. Thinking about some light training for a few weeks, and the ideas of Drew seem very interesting
Drew’s work looks very similar to my work in the Elimination Experiment.
If you read John’s quote, it’s that you need MORE volume, frequency and intensity…thus you need improvement in some form, but taking time off with lowering volume so you can increase intensity, or increasing frequency is also part of the mix, as is decreasing frequency so you can increase volume or intensity etc…
Bodyweight training can undoubtedly be ultra effective (just look at gymnasts, Cirque du Soleil guys, The Bar-Barians etc). Many other athletes still predominatly use good old fashioned calisthenics to get in amazing muscular shape (Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather come to mind).
The real question is what gets you excited and will keep you at it over the long term. If that’s bodyweight stuff stick with it, if it’s hitting the iron stick with that or mix them up. Surely they’re all just tools and what matters are other variables (progression, frequency, rest etc!) What is optimal for you might not be what you’ll do over the long term!
For me personally there is something very cool about being able to move your own body through space by knocking out chin ups, dips, muscle ups, sprinting etc. Picking up 500 pounds from the floor doesn’t interest me and I train accordingly. However, I still think it’s an impressive feat when I see others that can pick up huge amounts of iron.
In terms of the Shapeshifter site it looks gimmicky and uses lots of buzzwords but is clearly doing the job of getting interest. Good luck to the guys behind it!
Productive training isn’t rocket science but we sure do like to complicate it and make it sound like it is!
It’s arduous to search out educated individuals on this topic, however you sound like you know what you’re talking about! Thanks
I believe a person can get great results training with almost any tool – body weight, free weights, machines, bands, etc. – as long as they train hard and consistently and provide their body with the rest and nutrition it needs for recovery and adaptation.
For those who doubt body weight only training can provide enough resistance, give full-range handstand push ups, one-armed chin ups and pistols a try. There are a lot of ways to make body weight exercises more challenging as your strength increases.
I also believe there is a psychological advantage – a body weight exercise is an experience that directly translates into knowledge of and confidence in your ability to perform certain physical feats, something that free weight and especially machine exercises don’t provide.